Part 2: The Article Every Liberal Needs to Show a Conservative

Sad-BoehnerAbout a month ago, I wrote an article which I highly encouraged liberals to share with as many conservatives as possible.  It was basically my take on a lot of right-wing ignorance I see coming from conservatives.  But in my efforts to keep it from being a 20 page dissertation on the blatant avoidance of reality by many who support the Republican Party, I didn’t include everything.

So I’ve decided to do a Part 2.

In my first article I covered topics like gun rights, same-sex marriage, Christian values, conservatives for “small, fiscally conservative government,” abortion, the debt ceiling and tax cuts.  If you didn’t get to read that one, I’d highly encourage you to click this link and check it out.

I know that often when debating conservatives you can’t say certain things because they’re friends or family, which is why I decided to do articles such as this one—I’m going to say them for you.

I’ll start with a topic that’s been in the news a lot lately:


I’ll make this simple.  If you voted for a man who sent over 5,000 Americans to their deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan (that’s not even counting the thousands who are permanently disabled or the tens of thousands of dead Iraqi and Afghan civilians), then was President during 11 different terrorist attacks on American embassies, stop pretending to be “outraged” over 4 American deaths in Libya.

And if you really can’t see that Republicans are only pretending to care about Benghazi because they need something to attack Hillary Clinton with in 2016—you’re completely blind.

The Second Amendment and an “Armed Revolution Against Tyranny”

Answer me this—if the Second Amendment is meant to arm citizens for a possible revolution against the government, why does Article Three Section 3 of the United States Constitution state: “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”  Wouldn’t an armed revolt constitute “levying war” against the United States?  Meaning that those arming themselves for a possible “revolution” are not patriots, but in fact—traitors?

Just sayin’…

Spending on National Defense

This goes along with the “armed revolution” the Second Amendment apparently supports.  The same party which has millions of supporters who believe our Second Amendment gives citizens the right to rise up against the “tyrannical federal government,” is also the party which often supports hundreds of billions of dollars in new defense spending to better equip the United States military—which is controlled by the federal government.  I can’t be the only one who finds this a little ironic.

Nothing quite like preparing for the “second coming of the revolution” while supporting massive defense spending that ensures the “tyrannical government” you’ll be trying to overthrow is as well equipped as possible to squash your “rebellion” (which will probably consist of arsenals supplied by guns bought at the local Walmart).

 One Nation “Under God”

Sure isn’t.  I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago debunking the myth of our pledge and the phrase “One nation under God.

In this article I went over how our pledge wasn’t written until the late-1800’s.  Not only that, it was written by a Christian socialist (a minister at that) and the words “under God” were not included in the original text.   In fact, it wasn’t until 1954, in a response to the fear of communism, that the words “under God” actually appear in our Pledge of Allegiance.

And I also challenge any Republican to show me where the word “Christianity” appears even once in our Constitution.

Constitutional Rights

This is the point conservatives seem unable to understand.  Prohibiting you from denying other Americans their rights doesn’t take away from yours—it just prevents you from taking away theirs.

Here are a couple of examples:

  • Same-sex marriage: Allowing homosexuals to marry doesn’t take away your right to marry, it just takes away your right to prevent homosexuals from marrying.
  • Abortion: Giving women the right to choose for themselves what to do with their own body doesn’t mean you have to have an abortion, it just means you can’t prevent them from having one.
  • Freedom of/from religion: Saying Congress can’t pass laws based on religion doesn’t mean you can’t practice your religion as much as you want privately, it just means you can’t force your religion on someone else.

See the difference?  For most conservatives, probably not.

Christian Values

I also wrote an article where I stated Christianity was the issue Republicans really don’t get.  They seem to think owning a Bible and Sunday church attendance makes someone a Christian.

But I hate to break it to you—just because you go to church, know a few select passages from the Bible and call yourself a Christian doesn’t mean you are one.

Being a Christian means you believe in Jesus Christ, and follow his teachings.  Jesus lived a life that taught us to love, forgive, accept and help those less fortunate than ourselves.  He warned against greed, those who use the word of God for their own selfish ambitions and said that we shouldn’t judge others unless we can’t be judged ourselves.

If you really think Jesus would value guns over people and giving more to the wealthy at the expense of the poor—you’re damn sure not a Christian.

I’ll wrap it up there.  I really could keep going, which means it looks like I’ll just have to do a Part 3.

But I highly encourage any liberal/progressive/Democrat (or anyone that’s simply sick of right-wing rhetoric) to share this article, so that those who’ve driven you to the brink of insanity when discussing these issues can see a simple counter to their Fox News-fed bullcrap.

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Allen Clifton is a native Texan who now lives in the Austin area. He has a degree in Political Science from Sam Houston State University. Allen is a co-founder of Forward Progressives and creator of the popular Right Off A Cliff column and Facebook page. Be sure to follow Allen on both Twitter and Facebook. Have feedback, inquiries, criticism or hate mail? You can email him as well.


Facebook comments

  • http://thomasspear.name/ Thomas Spear

    I have a question for the author, coming from someone whom identifies as neither liberal nor conservative.

    Recently I got an email from an online activism site I follow. The content of the email basically boiled down to the following:

    “Tell x y and z people to support a bill which would allow people to get more money from the government for college”

    I don’t remember the exact text of the email or which site it was that sent it as it was a few weeks ago, but I wanted to know if all people that identify as liberals think this way. Basically, the impression I got from the email was that this group of people thought the government should hand out even more money than it already does for college tuition. Mind you that the Pell grants you get by filling out a FASFA form give you $4500 or so per semester, which is already more than most public colleges charge for tuition, lab fees, and books.

    I didn’t sign the petition, because my thought was “where is the money going to come from?” But again, I just was curious if you thought that same way and if so, why you do?

    • http://www.facebook.com/Sam.Knudson Sam Knudson

      I go to college and work full time to try to pay for college. At the end of 4 years i will be 100k in debt. I qualify if nearly no financial aid and do not get a penny from my parents when the expected contribution was extremely high to cover the lack of federal aid. Not everyone goes to community college and you really are not supposed to do anything but GE there. Good luck getting a job with a community college degree in any field that is even slightly competitive. I have friends who are forced to put off college till they are 25 simply because they can not afford it. Government needs to give money to students to complete college not less. Heck college should be paid for mostly by the government. Our education budget is stupidly laughable.

      • http://thomasspear.name/ Thomas Spear

        Thank all for your answers. To clarify, my question was not based on the fact that we have money we currently give corporations, because let’s face it – the government will never take away from the money they give to corporations through tax breaks and subsidies. So knowing that, where’s the money going to come from? I would love for the government to give more money to the students that need it, but only if there’s money available.

      • http://www.facebook.com/melania.gulley Melania Gulley

        So what your saying is don’t fight the government on giving money to big corporations which we don’t already have to give anyways but don’t help educate our younger people so they can make things better for themselves and all of us in the process. Do you have any idea how stupid that makes you sound

      • http://thomasspear.name/ Thomas Spear

        Actually Melania, I was merely a question based on the current status quo. Your assumption that I think we shouldn’t fight for a better future for our children makes you look like the idiot. I’m all for changing the status quo, but I think that there is a right way and a wrong way to do so, and I think if the email reflected that they want to reprioritize spending in the way others have suggested, that would be the right way. But the way the email was worded, it didn’t seem like that was the case.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mel-Haun-Sr/1749116655 Mel Haun Sr

      I don’t know the answer to your question as I was able to get 4 years with VA from WWII /Korea VA college program, and aid from Illinois, plus having worked overseas for several years and saved up quite a bit. BUT, 4500 would not have covered it for me, and that was 1980-..I also had retired from a couple jobs by then ( Military and State Dept.). 3 Members of my extended Family are presently in college or University, and work a couple jobs besides.

      BTW, at the end of 4 years, every cent saved was gone and I was in debt ( not as bad as it would have been if I did not have that added income.).

      The big expansion in the middle class, and the extensive economic gains made by all levels of society after WWII were in part because of the wwii / Korean War VA college program that allowed thousands to go to college. A reasonable program to allow college attendance is never a bad thing IMNSHEO. Is 4500 a semester sufficient? I do not know. But we need to make sure it is.

      • http://www.facebook.com/hanyewi Hanyewi Sunkmanitu Tanka

        It’s not “$4500 per semester” but rather:

        $5,500 per year if attending school 12 credit hours per semester
        $2,250 per year if attending school 6 credit hours per semester and
        $3425 per year if attending school 9 credit hours per semester.

        In any case, the amount is woefully inadequate.

      • cjmarley

        I wanna go to that school if it’s only 5500 a year.

        Okay…I see what you meant in a post below. you are referring to the pell grant money. given.

    • http://twitter.com/Bob_Jensen Bob Jensen

      Your comment “…$4500 or so per semester, which is already more than most public colleges charge for tuition, lab fees and books” really hit home, because I just got my daughter’s bill for college tuition next year at the small public college she attends.

      Tuition and Fees $27,300
      Books and Lab Supplies $1,200
      Room and Meals $9,500
      Health Insurance $1,300
      Other Expenses $2,600
      Total per academic year $41,900

      I find your claim laughable.

      • http://www.facebook.com/chefacec Anthony Harris

        Have mercy!

      • http://www.facebook.com/mrtp.knight Michelle R. Knight

        Isn’t it the truth. My daughter had bright futures, her pell grant and loans. There was not enough to cover everything, so it was tough for a single mother

      • Loredana

        That was great a great comment mrJensen ,it is obvious that Thomas Spear is clueless about the cost of higher education

      • cjmarley

        They are most definitely delusional and have never had to pay for a college tuition in recent years. Look at how many young people have racked up debt to go to college and then can’t even find a job in the career they worked so hard in college for. I know a gal who has two masters degrees and a PHD…she works at Walmart.

      • Judi Parmer Todd

        AMEN Bob Jensen. If other countries can have free education, why can’t the US, that is supposed to be the richest country in the world! (hahaha). Education is the key to the success of anything. Our youth ARE are salvation. Why not educate them to the fullest extent! Our country is so far behind others in that area, that it’s scary. If the rich, greedy corporations paid their fair share of taxes, our children could be educated enough to carry on and do something about this situation in our country. But the Republicans don’t WANT that. They don’t want anyone to be educated enough to stand up to the government. The “dumber” they are, the more they can pull the strings!

    • Mike

      $4500?! What are you filling out to get that much? Last semester from Pell grants I got $1000. For BOTH semesters. That means I got an extra $500 for each one, That amount is laughable. I work full-time, am married and am trying to improve myself to get a better job. $500 a semester? Yeah, students could use more help from the Government. They have billions they seem to find to give to corporations, how about we slide some of that to people wanting to go to college?

    • Janie

      4500 covers it??? what universe do you LIVE in??? cause sign me up!!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/mjolah Michael J. Olah

      I think you are horribly paraphrasing the email. The “liberal” position on such things is that we should INVEST in the education of our youth – as that is what makes us competitive, it is what creates people who will solve our problems, and it will, in the end, benefit the whole of the country through increased productivity, increased innovation, and increased standard of living for ALL. The liberal position isn’t that we should simply give more money, but PRIORITIZE government spending in this way – perhaps by ceasing corporate welfare, and diminishing the influence of the military industrial complex (and the costs thereof – like building things the Pentagon doesn’t want – which in a normal universe, we’d all call “waste”). All of those things, I am in favor of. Who wouldn’t be (except for the military industrial robber barons)

    • Thomas

      It’s not a Liberal view. Also, signing online petitions doesn’t really get much more done other than somebody getting and using your email address for personal gain.
      I will say that if money is available, whoever may qualify for it should take advantage of it. Generally, most people who would qualify for such funds probably wouldn’t be able to attend without them.
      I graduated in the 80’s from a small “state” college and that amount would have covered “most” of my tuition for the year. It wouldn’t have covered everything and if you were to total everything, maybe half – BUT I lived at home!

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/James-R-Hummel/1568725037 James R. Hummel

      I support the senior Mass senator’s bill to offer the same interest rate on student loans as we charge big banks when we float them money. I assume that is the bill you refer to. 3/4 of 1% is what we charge the big banks to borrow money from “we the people” so they can lend it back to us at rates around 14%. They make 13.25% on our money. Now, Elizabeth Warren is saying, let’s at least invest in the country’s future by lending our money to our own children at the same rate we subsidize our system of capitalism.
      I would answer your question, “where is the money going to come from?”, by asking you where the money comes from that subsidizes big banks to the tune of 3/4 of 1%? The answer is of course, “we the people”.

      • Judi Parmer Todd

        You got THAT right. I”d rather MY taxes go to students, than to the greedy, fat cat banks! Prioritize. THAT is the answer.

      • Jim Olson

        I’d rather my taxes go to education and poverty reduction than to the military-industrial complex.

    • shasta

      My son doesn’t qualify for a pell grant because my husband and I make too much money at about $100,000 per year before taxes. By the time we pay taxes, health insurance premiums, mortgage, and basic utilities and food costs, and all the other expenses of surviving, we don’t have a ton of money to help him out. There is no college within 100 miles of our home so he also needs help with living assistance. He paid $280 for one paperback book for one class last semester. He ended up needing 7 books in total. He paid almost as much for his books as he did for his tuition. He spends 20 hours a week in class and another 20 hours a week studying. He doesn’t waste money on partying or extravagant items. The last two semesters, he attempted to work. But because of his schedule, he was only able to work part time and for about $9.00/hour that didn’t work out to much money. He brought home about $400 to $500 a month to help out. He was dead tired and started catching every bug that came through. Through all of this, he was able to maintain a 4.0 GPA. This was all at a Community College. They are the least expensive colleges to attend. Next year, he moves on to a University. His per credit tuition will double, his costs for books at the higher level will increase. Our out-of-pocket expenses will increase since it is usually more expensive to pay for either a dorm or apartment in a university town. The amount of time he spends studying will increase. So yes, these college students do need more help. I don’t know if it needs to be in the form of more government aide or doing something about the fact that the cost of books has tripled in the past 10 years. Most schools also now use on-line teaching aides that can’t be resold to other students the next semester. They shrink wrap their books and include one-time use digital access codes. So these students are left paying massive amounts of money for books they will never use again. These are the choices, the government looks at helping them, the parents that can pay for their costs, the parents (like us) who can at the sacrifice of their own retirement pay for their expenses, they come out of school with massive debt, or they are too poor and cannot go to college. Educating our youth is never a bad investment.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1426924880 Merideth Turner

      The absolute largest Pell Grant you get is $5500 a year.

    • betsy44

      Where are these public colleges?

    • http://www.facebook.com/hanyewi Hanyewi Sunkmanitu Tanka

      Actually the Pell Grant program gives a MAXIMUM of $5500 PER YEAR – up to a maximum of 12 semesters assuming one maintains a minimum 2.5 GPA. It’s NOT, no matter how you want to spin it, enough to pay for a YEAR of college at ANY public 4 year institution of higher learning in the ENTIRE nation. This deficit is the REASON so many college students (and bear in mind it CAN cost up to $27,000 PER SEMESTER at some PUBLIC colleges in this country) wind up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt.

    • Ember

      That number isn’t even correct, and it is the maximum award amount for the whole academic year. Now if we were talking about just one term/semester, then it would be quite substantial. However it is spread over the course of the academic year, and doesn’t cover anywhere near the cost of college, as Bob Jensen there points out. Additionally, you can use it a max of 5 years (even if you didn’t use the full amount every year), and they cut down on federal subsidized loans. So anyone who has to go to school part-time (because they still have to work or raise a family, etc.) or is going for a more advanced degree than your B.A. in English, they get screwed over.

    • http://www.facebook.com/BGMsFANTASY2010 Michael Coleman

      $4500 per semester for a Pell Grant….That is funny, because I only receive $417 per semester. HAHAHAHAHAHA at your joke. And, not sure when you last attended college, but at my college, per semester it is around $3000, per semester of only part-time (2) classes per semester. So, yea, I am certain you can do the math for full-time. This is only in federal aid as I do online college, therefore, I do not qualify for state grants or funding, even though I live in the same state as my online college. Your post is just laughable. Sorry!

    • Jim Olson

      You’ve never seen a real bill from a college, have you.

      • http://thomasspear.name/ Thomas Spear

        Depends on if you’re talking about a college or university, and if a college, then whether it’s an open admission college or not. I’ve seen open admission college bills in Texas. Texas is cheaper than most other places, so it stands to reason that my view is a bit biased toward what most of the rest of the country would see as dirt cheap admission.

        Granted, it may only cost a few hundred per class including books and what not down here, whereas it may cost a couple thousand elsewhere, but if you’re serious about going to college, while at the same time not being able to afford it (other than exceptions where parents make too much money but not enough to afford it themselves) then I’m pretty certain that a person could make it work by taking fewer classes at a time in order to bring their per semester tuition costs down to a point where the money they currently already get from the government is enough to cover it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=40501346 Matthew Reece

    “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it” -Declaration of Independence

    • janie

      your idea of being oppressed is not getting to push other people around…tell them what religion to have, who to love and marry and other freedom of conscience considerations that were what all our other freedoms are meant to protect and are meaningless without! You want the freedom to oppress…sorry = not a good enuff excuse for traitorous acts.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=40501346 Matthew Reece

        Treason is defined as attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance. The state is an inherently immoral institution, both by logically proven natural rights and by its own definitions of morality as stated in law, therefore it is morally impossible to owe allegiance to it. Thus there is no such thing as treason.

        Perhaps I should have mentioned that I am an anarcho-capitalist so you would not have misunderstood me as being a conservative.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeff-Blanks/1348138287 Jeff Blanks

        If you really believe that, why do you think the Declaration of Independence (which is essentially a statement about what government is *good* for) has any credibility?

      • Dru

        He doesn’t – he’s an anarcho-capitalist. This is a term for only concerned about what I want and believe and that no one else matters (greedy, selfish, and clueless)

      • http://www.facebook.com/diannecb Dianne Carney Bagley

        All I can say is your guns will be as good of a defense as our tanks, drones and jets, bombs and military, so good luck with that. The south tried it once, how’d that work out for them?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Cooper/1093736482 Robert Cooper

      The Declaration of Independence is meant to declare war with Great Britain. It was never meant as a governing document, that is why they drew up the Constitution, to provide the frame work of the governing body. To interpret a declaration of war as a precedence of to governing would be narrow sighted. Not to mention that it gives credence to progressive ideas to change government for the betterment of our society as opposed to conservative repressive polices.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mary-Stone/100001328135240 Mary Stone

      Um, Matt? The Constitution of the United States supersedes the Declaration of Independence. Your argument is completely invalid.

  • http://www.facebook.com/chuck.severson Chuck Severson

    So much wrong in this article.

    So you want us to shut up about Benghazi because Bush was President when we went to war in Afghanistan & Iraq, and when other embassies were attacked? Those, dear liberal, have nothing to do with why we’re pissed about Benghazi. Bush, and his cabinet, never refused aid to an embassy when one came under attack. They didn’t try to blame it on a silly Youtube video. They didn’t ignore it and wish it would all just go away because it didn’t fit the narrative for their reelection campaign. But Obama & his cabinet (ahem…Hillary) sure did. That’s why we’re outraged.

    Armed revolution against tyrrany:
    I hope this never happens. However, if our government continues to erode the Constitution, and attacks enough Americans trying to live in peace, then it just might occur. “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants.” –Thomas Jefferson

    Defense spending:
    The military must be maintained & upgraded, period. Doing that costs money. It’s a simple fact of life. You might be surprised, however, to find that most conservatives are disgusted with the waste & cronyism found in the military-industrial complex. This is where you & conservatives likely share some common ground. I know of no conservative-minded person who doesn’t want to expose & elimiate wasteful military spending. Waste, fraud & abuse in military matters are as abhorrent to conservatives as welfare-mamas driving Cadillacs.

    The sequester:
    Conservatives love it, actually. Since Americans are continually forced to do with less nowadays, we think it’s only fair for Uncle Sam to do the same. We love seeing politicians forced to cut spending. We’ve only been calling for it for…I dunno…decades??? We want to see more cuts. Bring it on! Debt ceiling? Bah! Keep cutting – it’s the only way to stop the waste, fraud & abuse today’s politicians seem to enjoy so much.

    One nation under God:
    Conservatives know the whole story of how “under God” was added. So what? Good luck taking it away. Let me know how that works out for you.

    Constitutional rights:
    What liberals don’t seem to understand is that governments don’t provide rights – they only restrict rights. The US Constitution is a guarantee that certain rights cannot ever be infringed upon by any government. Once you start looking at it that way, your rights & freedoms start making a whole lot more sense. As for your examples…
    Same-sex marriage: This isn’t a rights issue, it’s a definition issue. “Marriage” is defined as the joining of 1 male to 1 female. Period. Nobody can really stop 2 guys from calling each other “husband”, but stop trying to ram it down everybody’s throat already. Also, I suppose you’re in favor of polygamy? Incest too? I mean, by your logic – society has to accept every individual’s definition of marriage, right?
    Abortion: murdering babies doesn’t guarantee anybody’s rights, it only takes away the murdered babies’ right to live. That being said, I think we all know that laws against abortion would be about as effective as laws against drugs. Only when our culture starts celebrating life, and loving each other – only then will we wake up and stop killing our precious children. But just because I’m not in favor of using laws to stop abortions doesn’t mean I won’t speak out against the practice.
    Freedon of religion: first of all, there is no “freedom from religion” mentioned anywhere in the Constitution. That’s a made-up term. The 1st amendment prohibits the government from making a law respecting the establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging freedom of speech…etc. So, what does that mean? It means the government can’t make a national church (as they do in Europe). It does not mean that I have to hide myself away when I worship. I belong in the public square as much as any atheist, and I have a right to offer my ideas as much as any atheist. I have a right to free speech. The government has no right to stop me from speaking and promoting my religion anywhere I want. It’s about time atheists figured that out. Christians are tired of being pushed around.

    Christian values:
    Christianity isn’t a contest to see who can appear more pious. Christianity is about accepting God’s love and forgiveness for our sins. Go in peace –

    • http://www.facebook.com/jacob.daniels.399488 Jacob Daniels

      Bush did in fact refused to aid many embassies and when he did, over 5,000 Americans were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Obama and his cabinet are not responsible for Benghazi so get over yourself.

      Armed revolution against Tyranny:
      There was no way Thomas Jefferson said what he said. It would be good if you Republicans could stop twisting what people say, in history in particular to prove your points.

      Defense spending:
      Are you joking?! All the Republicans want to do is cut funds for the military so we have no military whatsoever.

      The sequester:
      Why would you want to keep cutting when Bush was the reason why we were in debt…. I don’t know because he kept cutting. If we keep cutting, the debt will go through the ceiling like with Bush. You know what the sequester does to the rich? Delays flights. The seniors and poor suffer by what the Republicans claim a “balanced” sequester.

      One nation under God:
      He’s not saying he wants to take it away. Allen is saying that Conservatives take it out of context and really make it seem like we’re a Christian nation.

      Constitutional rights:
      What you Conservatives seem to don’t understand is government doesn’t restrict rights. If you’re so against the government then without the government, how would you collect social security? How would you pay for a broken arm? For college? The government because they don’t restrict rights, help the American people.

      Same sex marriage: Another thing you Conservatives seem to not understand is that Constitution is what Americans live by, not the bible. The Constitution says: “Men and women… should live by the pursuit of happiness”. Stop going by what the bible says and more by the constitution.

      Abortion: The Liberals do not want to murder babies, they simply want the mother to have the choice to kill the baby. The Conservatives are Pro-Life and think the mother shouldn’t have any choice whatsoever into what to do with the baby.

      Freedom of religion: Oh yes there is freedom of religion in the Constitution. The government lets anyone practice their religion freely. The government doesn’t restrict people the freedom of religion! They actually embrace it.

      Christian values: Christianity is basically this: If you accept Jesus as your savior all is forgiven and you can do as much bad things as you want as long as Jesus is your savior.

      • http://www.facebook.com/diannecb Dianne Carney Bagley

        Yup, they just do bad things, go to confession, and god forgives them, so they can continue to do bad things again.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jacob.daniels.399488 Jacob Daniels

        I agree

      • Stephen

        There is a whole lot more to being Christian than just what you stated. Read your Bible…… Christ told us we must repent and believe in him. And just so you know, the word translated to repent means literally to turn around, make an about face. Anyone who truly accepts Christ could not go back to his sins…. it is no longer in his nature,.

      • CJ

        Yea right…no longer in his nature. People don’t change. They just put on an appearance of change.

        My oldest son had a talk with a minister once upon a time. My son asked him that since the Bible clearly states that Jesus died for all of our sins…then are we not already forgiven? If not…then what did he truly die for? The Bible is full of contradictions and each sect of Christianity interprets in their own manner and proclaim it to be the one truth…and they are the only true followers of Christ…all others are going to hell (although I can’t really say that about the Methodists…I grew up in the Methodist church and have seen them to be accepting of all other religions AND all people regardless of their sexual orientation).

        I do get sick of seeing people pulling out just particular passages of the Bible to make their point without taking in the whole context. Most especially where homosexuality is concerned. They pull out the old “the old testament” says that homosexuality is a sin…but let’s ignore the parts that says that it’s okay to own slaves, that rapists are required to marry the woman they raped, it’s okay to stone people to their death and multiple wives are a-okay. Our society as a whole and all religions have moved past all those dictates…except the homosexuality portion. And the majority of those who do this are conservatives.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jacob.daniels.399488 Jacob Daniels

        Lol you’re so humorous. I’m an athiest so I don’t read the bible and
        believe in Christ. While you live in fear that Christ will repent you
        for your sins I am living peacefully and out of fear.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jacob.daniels.399488 Jacob Daniels

        Lol you’re funny Stephen. I’m not a Christian or Cathloc so I don’t believe in Christ or read the bible. While you live in fear that Jesus will punish you for your sins I live in happiness and out of fear.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kevin-Oconnor/1253989250 Kevin O’connor

      Everything you’ve said is stupid.You go in peace.

      • http://www.facebook.com/shane.padgett.54 Shane Padgett

        And this reply solidifies exactly what the author and these commentators are talking about. You use fear mongering and ignorant insults to try and push your illogical and ill conceived points of view.

      • Dru

        REALLY? Well, I guess your argument/statement is as well informed as any of the right wing/conservative/religious right individuals I’ve heard in a while. CONGRATULATIONS!

    • Thomas

      I love this part of your writing;
      “Constitutional rights:
      What liberals don’t seem to understand is that governments don’t provide rights – they only restrict rights. The US Constitution is a guarantee that certain rights cannot ever be infringed upon by any government.”
      This my friend is a complete contradiction! The rest of your argument is simply supported by that contradiction!
      The rest of what you wrote is pretty much Fox Spew and doesn’t really address what the man wrote!

    • http://www.facebook.com/mjolah Michael J. Olah

      No, I don’t want you to shut up about Benghazi because Bush was president when A & I started. I want you to explain WHY the situation in Benghazi warrants all of this hoopla under Obama, when the 11 embassy attacks (and 64 total diplomatic attacks) resulting in 37 deaths under Bush were not worthy of all this hoopla. Essentially, the only thing different here is Obama v. Bush, which is the definition of hypocrisy.

      As far as hoarding guns to prevent tyranny, then, as the article points out, explain to me what the right is so fervent in continuing to build weapons that can suppress such revolutionary actions by it’s citizenry? We need more guns because we demand more guns for a government were afraid of that may suppress my rights? Another definition of hypocrisy.

      As far as “eroding the Constitution” – that’s real easy to say, but I think you need to explain yourself. I mean, read the section aout Constitutional rights above. How does prevent you from impeding someone elses’ right affect yours? That, IN FACT, is what government is for. The protect the rights of all against attacks by some.

      • http://www.facebook.com/diannecb Dianne Carney Bagley

        Yes exactly. Point proven. You can’t get one of these crazy people to listen even when the facts are in front of them. They’re being lead into complete chaos, by listening to propaganda intended to capture the attention of the unstable, uneducated, ignorant, citizens and incite them into unrest and rioting for no other reason but race. The right wing has gone completely mad.

    • I Once Was Andrew

      1. Remember that time that terrorists flew airplanes into our iconic skyscrapers, killing 3,000 people, and Bush sat paralyzed in a classroom of children for seven minutes? But yeah, no, talk to me about Benghazi. You know what’s interesting about Benghazi? Republicans voting to cut (CUT! CUT! CUT! MUST CUT EVERYTHING!) embassy security, then blaming Obama when the embassy didn’t have enough security. There’s no doubt that the Obama administration said things that were factually incorrect in the aftermath of the attack, but the fact is that the only thing they’re guilty of is shooting off their mouths before they had all the information.

      2. “However, if our government continues to erode the Constitution, and attacks enough Americans trying to live in peace, then it just might occur.” — Exactly what “Americans trying to live in peace” is our government “attacking”? If you’re talking about the War on Drugs, I’m with you. If you’re not… well, then you’re just making things up.

      3. I never hear any conservatives talk about waste in the Department of Defense. Neither the pundits nor the politicians. All I ever hear from conservatives is that Obama is going to cripple our military by cutting defense spending.

      4. The sequester doesn’t hurt “Uncle Sam.” It hurts regular people. It takes away funding for scientific research. For the National Institutes of Health. For immigration enforcement! For Head Start programs. For public housing. For the FDA. For the SEC. For the Library of Congress. For unemployment. For WIC. For the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program that helps poor people pay their electric bills. Essentially, the sequester makes poor people suffer while the rich politicians play politics. The one thing from the sequester that affected the rich — cuts that caused flight delays — was promptly fixed. Our government at work.

      5. I doubt that most conservatives have heard the story of how “under god” was added. More importantly, they obviously don’t care. I’ll grant that this one’s a weak point.

      6A. “‘Marriage’ is defined as the joining of 1 male to 1 female.” – Right, except it’s not and you’re a bigot.

      6B. Additionally, abortion is not baby murder. Way to take a complex issue and simplify it to the point of idiocy. At least you understand that laws aren’t the way to go about reducing abortions.

      You know what is, right? Proper (NOT abstinence-preaching) sex education and increased income equality.

      6C. “Christians are tired of being pushed around” is the funniest thing I have ever heard in my life. That’s right up there with an Auschwitz guard saying, “Man, I can’t stand how much these Jews are complaining.”

      No one’s said you can’t be in the public square, whatever that means. What we DO say is that you can’t try to pass laws based on your religious beliefs because that is not how America works.

      7. Christianity is not about “accepting God’s love and forgiveness for our sins.” What a beautifully irresponsible view that is. Your religion, if it means anything, should be about endeavoring to emulate the man you worship — that means loving everyone equally, helping the poor, not being greedy, and living in peace with the world. But no, to WASP America, it’s just: “We’re all sinners; sorry ’bout that, god. Forgive me? Alright. Gonna go do whatever we want now.”

      • http://www.facebook.com/RodLev Rodney Levenduski

        I agree with your reply.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Deanna-G-Woods/1309276065 Deanna G. Woods

        Too many people see Christ only as a Savior and forget that He was also a Teacher, talking to people and modeling for them how to live a life of meaning. One song that has remained in my mind since childhood is this one, which describes an aspect too often forgotten: “They’ll know we are Christians by our love….”

      • http://twitter.com/tracylfreedmans Tracy Stefanov

        So well said, I decided not to give my lengthy response!

      • http://www.facebook.com/Angiefrenchie Angie Raggamuffin French

        I love you. That is all.

      • I Once Was Andrew

        Hey, I love you for loving me.

      • Dru

        SPOT ON, SIR! It’s amazing to me how the religious right/conservative outlook can be so short sighted while preaching from a pedestal. If you are so high up there, how are you going to see? This guys views are so imbecilic… you did a fantastic job of countering his “opinions”
        Thank you!

      • alkg

        Absolutely brilliant! Thank you. You should be a writer.

      • Judi Parmer Todd

        WONDERFUL POST! And dead on! I once was Andrew!

      • Michelle

        Well said!

      • Rachel

        Oh my gosh Andrew that was so wonderful. Thank you!!! I need you around when people like Chuck spew their distorted and idiotic ideas that are completely fear based and ignorant.

      • Jim Olson

        Brilliantly said, sir. Well done.

    • http://www.facebook.com/tom.bennett.549 Tom Bennett

      No one wants you to shut up about Benghazi. Keep up with this silly witch hunt where there’s no evidence that anyone did anything wrong. If you watched the witch hunt last week on CSPAN then you saw that Idea’s witnesses themselves said that even if they sent in reinforcements ASAP that no one could’ve got there in time and that several other embassies at the time had protests and being attacked because of this video. As for asking for more funds for embassy security: In Obama’s 2011 budget he asked for $120 million more in embassy security and instead the Repubs in Congress cut it by $150 million. Again in 2013 he asked for $330 million and they refused. Clinton even testified to Congress last spring saying these cuts to embassy security will put embassies and their personnel in danger. They cut them anyway and then blamed her when an embassy got attacked.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Don-Liston/100000516912149 Don Liston

      You really summed it all up for everyone” You can always tell a conservative but not a hell of a lot. I’ll let some others give you the stomping you deserve with your ignorant response.

    • http://www.facebook.com/RodLev Rodney Levenduski

      @Chuck; Don’t know where you picked up this ‘article’ but the person who wrote it is one mentally ill, misinformed, ignorant brainless twit. People this, and modern Republicans in Congress and around the country keep accusing the “liberals” with everything they are doing- ruining America. Trying to force “Christians values” (I’m beginning to think that is an oxymoronic statement) on everybody. Whom ever wrote that piece is a ‘card carrying member’ of the American Christian Taliban without a doubt.

    • betsy44

      Just more BS, get your facts straight, they did send help in Benghazi? What do you think the February 17 Libyan Brigade and men from the US Annex were doing there. You wouldn’t have to be so outraged if you would learn to get the facts instead of Fox News BS. No one lied about anything, first you investigate and get all the facts . There are some things we don’t need terrorists knowing while we are hunting them down, Use some commonsense and get over all your big conspiracy theories, this must be the 5th one and they have all been debunked. But keep looking for something that isn’t there and never was there. Sort of like the WMD in Iraq. Republicans wouldn’t know a fact or a truth if it was staring them in the face. Lying is one of their big Christian values.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jacob.daniels.399488 Jacob Daniels

        Betsy, I love what you wrote but the only problem is Chuck doesn’t have facts, he has lies.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Deanna-G-Woods/1309276065 Deanna G. Woods

      Sadly, what I’m seeing is an erosion of the Constitution by the minority among minorities. For example, the Tea Party Republicans in several states are using ALEC’s bill drafts to pass voter suppression legislation. In North Carolina, we see another example in that the Tea Party legislators tried to pass a bill that mandated a state religion. There are other examples, but these are beginning to appear the tip of an iceberg.

    • http://www.facebook.com/diannecb Dianne Carney Bagley

      Guess you’re one of those nut job, narrow minded, gun toting, anti government radicals, huh.

    • edpradza0z

      boy howdy there chuck (rhymes with stuck). you just aired yer stupid to a whole buncha people who er smarter n you. whatcha gonna do with yer foot now? everbody here can’t wait fer the lamebrain of yer studied response! get in there, boy , and pitch somore dogpatch. ah know ye got it in ya. pitch it all out, and then MAYBE! something intelligent will manifest itself! yepper, good buddy….. bit i won’t hold my breath–know whutta mean?

    • Heather Ferris

      I love how you rage about guns and shit then end with “god’s love” and “go in peace.” Give me a break. You think Jesus would be on your side about the gun issue as tens of thousands of his children are killed by guns in this country EVERY YEAR? Get a grip.

    • Dwight Heitman

      They ALWAYS go to the polygamy, incest argument. Chuck, you forgot bestiality. Reductio ad absurdum is a conservative favorite. And just as the Right is pro-troop til they come home wounded, they are pro-fetus until they’re born. Then, you’re on your own!

      And where’s the outrage over the private contractors who were killed in Iraq during the height of the war? There’s over 250 American names on that list. Are their lives not as precious as those who died in Lybia? Or is it that they have no POLITICAL value?

      • Judi Parmer Todd

        So true Dwight. The Right seems to forget all the REAL facts of which side has caused more deaths, etc. Republicans are FOR wars. Wars are big money. They act like they care about unborn babies, but then when they’re born, let them starve to death because it might just take food out of THEIR mouths in the form of taxes. Frankly, it’s gotten to the point that Republicans have no hearts at all, except for their own. They’re thought process is “I’ve got mine, so EFF you”!

    • Brent Slensker

      “refused aid to an embassy when one came under attack.”

      You can STICK that worn out lie so far up you know where! THIS is why there is no discourse, you watch FOX LIES as if it were news rather than edited propaganda.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jacob.daniels.399488 Jacob Daniels

    Wow this article is right on!

  • http://www.facebook.com/antony.rp1 MarcoNani Rpg

    “In the world there are the morons, idiots, fools and madmen. (…) The idiot does not even speak, drooling, is spastic. It crushes the ice against the forehead, can not coordinate movements. Enter the revolving door on the opposite side. (…)

    Being a jerk is already more complicated. Is a social behavior. The fool is the one who always speaks outside of the cup (…). Or if you prefer is the one who always screws up, which asks how is his beautiful wife to the individual who has just been dumped by the woman (…). The fool is in demand, especially in social gatherings. Inconvenient but gives them all talking. (…)

    The stupid behavior is not wrong. Reasoning is wrong. It’s the one that says that all dogs are pets and all dogs bark, but also cats are pets and therefore bark (…). He published many books written by stupid, because at first glance are very convincing (…).

    (The Madman) is a fool who knows no subterfuge. The fool tries to demonstrate his thesis, has a logic, limping, but logic is. In contrast, the loco does not care about having a logic, moving from short circuits. For him, everything proves everything. When crazy is recognized because it skips the burden of proving bullfighter what is said, because he is always willing to receive revelations. And it will seem strange, crazy sooner or later brings up the Templars. ”

    Fragment of Foucault’s Pendulum.

    • http://www.facebook.com/antony.rp1 MarcoNani Rpg

      In that group you would place wicked conservatives?

  • Mr. Smith

    I usually have things to add to a commentary but your brilliant and nothing more needs to be said other then please write a part 3.

    • http://www.facebook.com/RodLev Rodney Levenduski

      NOT “your” but “you are” or “you’re”.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Betty-Snyder/100001187006436 Betty Snyder

        If all you got out of this article was a your vs you’re, you maybe a conservative. Reread it for content.

      • Aaron Levesque

        Yeah, and he should have written “than” instead of “then,” but who cares.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1193650425 Cynthia Almy Savage

    Good luck…..show this to a conservative and it won’t make one bit of difference. Conservatives, by their nature, accept information from a trusted source without question and question every bit of information from nontrusted sources. And, for 30 years, the conservative media has labelled everything outside of their echo chamber as not trustworthy. Heck, Rush called “science” a “wing of the Democratic Party” on his show a few weeks ago. The meme of “libtards who want a handout from the government for everything” is here to stay until our current crop of conservatives die off. For proof, read the troll below…

    • John Gavel

      Only thing they need to show conservatives is that the IRS is flagging and screwing them

      • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

        huh? no, the IRS isn’t screwing them, THEIR OWN PIMPS AND HOS are screwing them: the ones they vote for, and the ones who OWN the ones they vote for. DUH.

    • Butch Dyke

      LOL love it

    • corey

      well, they trust trusted republican sources, not that that means that they are legit sources

      • Michelle


    • Justifymyconfessions

      So true! If I had a buck for everytime I’ve been called a “libtard”…..

      • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

        When they do that, and use various other “insults” and “derogatory” terms, I always thank them. Because it sure beats where they are coming from!!
        Liberal is not a dirty word. :)

    • KMC528

      You can lead a conservative to facts, but you can’t make him read them.

      • Karen Peters

        Even if he does read them you can never make him believe them.

      • jdunaway65

        Or comprehend them, if they DO read them…

    • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

      I’m not sure that the current crop dying off is going to end it either. because for ever one of them, a million others have been brainwashed, programmed, and sent to do the devil’s bidding, and they will bring the next generation right along with them. I have hopes that the young among them will be exposed to more sane acquaintances and learn that some things are just NOT ACCEPTABLE, and help the next generation to do a bit better than we’re seeing bad examples of “adults” displaying!

  • http://www.facebook.com/Vested.Verdure Vested Verdure

    I am not a conservative, I am not a liberal… I am an American which is pretty much as middle of the road, and down to earth as one can get.

    I personally see Benghazi and Hillary Clinton as a matter of the LIES, cover-ups, and more lies. Anyone which tries to simplify it down after seeing all of the facts at this point are either completely ignoring all of the facts or simply don’t care about the accountability of our administration whatsoever.

    The Second Amendment is to insure we are able to protect ourselves. Nothing more, nothing less. I am sick to death of the stupid that comes from this hot button! It’s played out.

    The DoD is out of control with their spending. Even the military has agreed and yet the congress continues to spend – Tanks! The industrial complex is in bed with congress, always has been. Until we remove lobbyists & superpacs ie money from politics it will ALWAYS be this way; Pretending otherwise is STUPID.

    Sequester – Blaming either side of cultivated pig-headed dumb is equally stupid. Neither side was willing to budge! Obama had a democrat heavy congress initially and still didn’t pass a budget, so what is the excuse for that? There is ALWAYS an excuse and it is ALWAYS we, the people that pay the ultimate price for their inability to act like PROPER representatives.

    Constitutional Rights – Agreed! Freedom of Religion means Freedom of ALL religions, not just yours! Same goes for same sex marriage & abortion.

    However, if someone bothers to educate themselves about Law of Sharia they will fast learn that our Constitution and Sharia Law cannot possibly coexist at the same time. Sharia Law says they will not suffer an Infidel to live, anyone which does not also live the law and live as a Muslim is an infidel… So, obviously they do not play well with others. I am not a bigot, merely explaining a fact that was explained to me by a Muslim friend.

    I am almost as sick of christian bashing as I am hearing the race card thrown out for ANYONE that agrees with the 2nd Amendment.

    “If you really think Jesus would value guns over people and giving more to the wealthy at the expense of the poor—you’re damn sure not a Christian.”
    Allen, if you REALLY believe it comes down to valuing guns over people you are truly LOST when it comes to the 2nd Amendment. I suggest you reading Luke 22:36-37.
    However, I completely agree with you on your second point… Again, money needs taken out of our political system or we will NEVER see justice.

    I grow weary, downright sick, of seeing the inter-fighting of Americans, the democrat vs republican drivel. The very OLDEST Psy Op on the books and yet so MANY are still falling for it! GET IT RIGHT MY FRIENDS!!

    It is now, and it has always been; The SYSTEM vs the PEOPLE!

    None of these filthy corrupt politicians care about you, your families, your dreams, jobs, or what you hope for tomorrow! They are the ELITE Ruling class, you are the piss poor paupers merely there to work and be a worker drone; this is EXACTLY how they want things… just in case you still haven’t figured it out on your own. (Yes, there are the few that speak up and are quickly voted out or their light is snuffed out.) This is EXACTLY how they see it, and the sooner you recognize this, the sooner we can one and ALL join forces to fix this gross misrepresentation of a Constitutional Republic! So stop bickering, bitching, and fighting among one another over the same old rhetoric! STOP bowing down to worship them as if they are going to some how fix the very broken they worked VERY VIGILANTLY to build! Come to the realization, THEY will NEVER help we, the people! Get it! Got it? GOOD!

    We are the KEY to our own Salvation!!

    • Preirin

      Unlike others, I don’t shy away from a long post. I feel if it is that important to write I should at least give it a read. Having done that, I am somewhat confused over this post. You begin with the claim you are a Centrist (as am I) but then you begin to lean. I agree with your final paragraph somewhat, that our politicians are corrupt…. that is why I am pushing everyone to withhold their vote. I know it will never happen but it is the most peaceful, most powerful form of revolution we have. There is no greater vote of no-confidence than giving no vote at all.

      Your comment about Luke 22:36-37 and the second confuses me. Can you clarify how :’Then said he unto them,
      But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip:
      and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that
      this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was
      reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an
      end.’ provides any argument for/against the Second?

      • betsy44

        When you said Hillary lies, coverups, more lies I quit reading because obviously you did not fact check anything. There was no cover-up , no lies, no need for any of that, would not have benefited anyone, and show me one ounce of proof. Republicans have no idea of what they are even looking for, all they have is ,’If they did this or if they did that”. Maybe had they attended Benghazi information meetings instead of standing out in front of a camera lying their arses off, they would have gotten some facts.

      • Preirin

        You replied this to me but I never said Hilary lied…. just as a point of clarification.

        That said, however, I think all politicians lie. Part and parcel, really.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Vested.Verdure Vested Verdure

        She lied when she did 5 talk shows saying it was all over the video bashing Allah, made in Hollywood. Had you watched the hearings for yourself, the questions were asked and answered.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Vested.Verdure Vested Verdure

        Those which live by the sword, die by the sword.

    • http://www.facebook.com/hanyewi Hanyewi Sunkmanitu Tanka

      I’ve been around a LONG time and I have to state categorically in ALL my life there have been precisely three REAL Christians (that is three people who lived as CHRIST HIMSELF TAUGHT) – and all three are now dead. I see NO evidence anyone currently alive lives as CHRIST HIMSELF TAUGHT – including 100% of those who claim to be “Christian.”

  • 503me

    I loved your posting

  • jan greer

    Gosh Allen I just love you! You write what is in my heart! Thanks

  • Preirin

    The only caveat I have is in reference to ‘traitor’ vs fighting against a tyrannical government, or ‘revolution’. The only difference between the two is in who wins. Had we lost the fight against Britain, we would have been labeled traitors and put to death rather than revolutionaries. Not that I am supportive of abusing any amendment of the constitution for personal gain (seriously, is anyone (not crazy) actually so afraid of an overnight government takeover that they need to arm themselves with a cache of munitions?) The entire debacle over the Second was generated by the NRA lobbyists. But America just doesn’t care… we’ve lost the center of politics and have allowed our nation to become a laughing stock, full of the very corrupt politicians we try to denounce in other countries. We have a pay-per-vote system and as long as we continue to vote these yahoos on either side into power, nothing will change. You want a revolution? Start by killing the vote. It is our right to vote and our right to withhold that vote – let’s start taking our country back!

    • Jim Olson

      There is a whole segment of otherwise reasonably intelligent, rational people in our society who are completely convinced that the Federal Government is just waiting until the time is right to swoop in and take away people’s rights. Congress just failed to pass the Farm bill, just about the least offensive and controversial bill that comes before them every year. How do these people think the government could get it together enough to declare national martial law?

  • http://www.facebook.com/doug.davies.7 Doug Davies

    Mr. Clifton, excellent piece. I look forward to part 3. Unfortunately, most of the conservatives I know have lost the powers of rational thought, reasoning, and civil debate. They only absorb the propaganda disseminated by Fox News and other maniacs as an infant does pablum……..

    • Ann_W

      “They’ve lost the powers of rational thought, reasoning and civil debate…” Isn’t that a demeaning statement? Why do you think a statement like that would encourage civil debate? If you are truly a liberal, shouldn’t you engage with an open mind and not be judgemental? People have different ideas than you, that doesn’t make them deficient or evil.

      • Vinnie R

        I would normally totally agree with you, Ann. As a proud Liberal, all I’ve ever really wanted to do is have a civil debate with someone of a differing opinion. Unfortunately, years of being blamed for everything from the Holocaust to recession to Rwanda (ok, that’s a slight exaggeration), and constantly seeing on Facebook how liberals are commies or liberals are brain dead or seeing best selling books on the subject, one tends to say “screw it, if that’s how the game is played than so be it.” So this is just a reaction to the way that we have been treated for having a different idea of how to pick our country back up. And I’m begging you to spare the “it happens on both sides” argument as a justification…..there’s a double standard in this country that makes liberal bashing perfectly fine….but when the gun barrel turns back around, then it’s the worst kind of insult.

      • Ann_W

        I haven’t seen any of that. You may want to rethink your friends. And yes, I’ve seen more name calling on the left (see below “selfish, greedy, and want only for themselves.) What would it be like if we could just discuss issues? That’s called being civil, it’s what civilization is based on.

      • Judi Parmer Todd

        Ann, it’s obvious that you are also one of those dillusional Republicans who cannot see how Dems are continually bashed and called libtards, dumb welfare people, etc. It happens all the time, so now we are fighting back.

      • malcom

        you seem to fail to point out how cough cough, people like you liberals bash non liberals. You are the new NAZI’s and treat those who aren’t in your traitorous evil party horrible especially if they disagree with your black hitler.

      • Brent Slensker

        Please define that word…It’s obvious you think it’s smart to use words you don’t understand but it just makes you look stupid.

      • Sarah Kremer

        The people put in concentration camps during the Holocaust were worked to the bone, tortured, experimented on, starved, gassed, separated from their families, shot into mass graves and discarded like trash once they were dead. Hitler meant to exterminate them. Like insects. It’s an insult to the people who went through all that to compare such a thing.

      • breakdowns

        The ignorant hatred strong with this one it is…

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        awwww,,,,, black hitler!! we love the fact that you low IQ inbred regressive crybabies are SOOOO pissed at an eloquent classy AFRICAN man as YOUR president—————— MMMMMMmmmmmm: southern scumbag psalm singing VOODOO ( Christianity) white trash

      • Al Cleverdon

        Ann, I’m curious. What are your thoughts about Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck?

      • Ann_W

        I haven’t listened to Rush or Sean in years, and then only a handful of times. I listen to Beck 2 or 3 times a week and I never have heard him call names. I hear him go into depth about why he feels issues are important all the time. Quite different than what I have seen on this post and the comments.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        glen beck got thrown off of FOX “news”……….. that aint easy

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        my thoughts??? ” MOOOOOOOOOOO”

      • FlSam

        Ann, if you haven’t seen it, you’ve chosen not to. You see more namecalling on the left because of this same myopia. And a nice bit of baiting there earlier: “If you are truly a liberal, shouldn’t you engage with an open mind and not be judgemental?” If that’s what a liberal truly is, then by your reasoning, does that mean a true conservative engages with a closed mind and is judgmental? Since supposedly conservatism has nothing to do with liberalism, correct?

      • Ann_W

        The definition of liberal is– broad-minded: tolerant of different views and standards of behavior in others. That’s why I brought that up, because on this thread and others I just hear name calling and comments such as the one made in this thread, “I know their opinions are stupid, I don’t need to listen to them.” I don’t hear any liberals wanting to engage on issues, just to try to belittle the people they disagree with. It’s a disconnect with what your label is supposed to mean, that’s why I brought it up. And your saying that conservatives are closed-minded and judgemental contributes to an open debate of issues, how?

      • Liam

        So, your contention is we should “play nice” while being bullied by Rethuglicans. NO!

      • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

        Um, we should not sink to their level, but also not be afraid to exercise TOUGH LOVE, because Jesus did when similar abusers of privilege were disrespecting the Temple he angrily drove them out of. If we love our nation, we cannot pussyfoot and mince words. We have to dress them down, intelligently but firmly, because it’s about as bad as SILENCE when we overdo the “polite” nonsense. There is nothing to be polite about when people are so ignorant, so stubborn, and so LAZY about doing their homework, that it is destroying what is left of our nation. True patriotism requires telling the harsh, blunt truth, and if they have to be treated a bit harshly to get their attention, so be it. Because gentle, logical communication is something they just don’t understand.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        ever notice that the MALES of FOX “news” an regressive crybaby tea party scum are all overweight? ( Hannity/Limbaugh/Huckabee/ eric bolling/glenn beck) while the so-called females” are flatchested pissed off skanks who hate the fact that they got robbed anatomically? MMMmmmmm— michelle malkin!! concave chest at its best!

      • Ruth Kevghas

        Ann- I appreciate civil discourse above all- I may agree to disagree with friends that are conservative and for the most part we are respectful of one another- the key word here- Friends- those that post and appear on Fox News and other extremist media- I do not consider friends and they have been lambasting and belittling anyone that doesn’t think like them for years. If you listen to the Republican politicians like Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin or Ted Cruz, then you would know what the rest of us are angry about; I am sad for you that your world is so narrowly focused.

      • Ann_W

        So you are tolerant of anyone (who believes exactly the same as you do). I see.

      • Ruth Kevghas

        Ann, you seem to twist words to suit yourself, I am open minded about many things, but bigotry and defamation of character are not things I am tolerant of. I can disagree without name calling; I can also adjust my thought process when presented with new ideas that are based in facts and not based on someone’s opinion only.

      • Spiritart

        I have tried numerous times to engage in civil discussions with conservatives. I post fact after fact after fact. All I ever get back are rhetoric and platitudes and their complete ignorance of the truth. I never give up, and that is what this article is trying to do – give plain and simple facts that should be understood by all, but instead are buffeted away like so many gnats. Why is it so hard for you to just listen to facts without emotion and ideology closing off all communication?

      • Ann_W

        All right, here we’ll have a civil discussion. Did you realize that the country is running out of money? We can’t pay for all the “good ideas” that liberals want us to pay for. Pretty soon we won’t even be able to pay for Social Security and Medicare which we have already committed to. Your turn.

      • Spiritart

        Social Security is not going broke and if it were, the best idea would be to raise the cap on deductions or do away with it completely. It does not cost the government a penny, in fact, the government has continually borrowed money from Social Security. We are not running out of money, in fact the deficit has been dramatically going down. However, to help decrease the debt, raising taxes on the top 1% would be one way to alleviate the pressure. Another would be to cut down on defense spending, which is way out of control and unnecessary. Just as in any business, the country needs to spend some money in order to make it. Investing in our infrastructure would not only improve the safety of our roads, bridges, railways, etc., it would create more jobs, which would create more prosperity, which would bring in more taxes. Cutting back in a recession is the worse thing to do as you can see examples in Europe with the disaster the austerity efforts are causing. The end of the Afghanistan war. next year will also bring a cutback in spending, thanks to President Obama. That war and the one in Iraq are the main reasons we are so much in debt and it will take some time to recover from that drain.

      • Ann_W

        We have promised in benefits 23 trillion dollars more than we will take in on contributions to SS and Medicare accounts. The 1% earned 2.6 trillion dollars TOTAL in 2012. So we could tax them at 100%, take away all the jobs they create, and still not really make a dent in the debt that we are trying to make our grandchildren pay. I realize that it was the politicians who stole the money that was supposed to pay for it, but the fact remains that we need to pay for it. How do you suppose that we do that, especially with the new programs like Obamacare adding enormously to costs, and your other wish list? Also, infrastructure which has gotten tons of money (billions in the stimulous package and the bill right after it) voted for it, but they keep not actually spending the money on infrastructure. Our politicians are wasteful and give money and if we just keep throwing money at them they will never feel the heat required to balance the budget. –Oh and if you look closely at the European austerity measures, the bulk of it was tax increases, not spending cuts. That’s why they can’t get their economies back rolling, and unemployment is so high.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        debt escalation initiated by “saint” Reagan; mainly to asia( china),,,,,, U want to remove debt? (A) tax churches/mosques/ temples…. (B) legalize and TAX weed and cocaine- its here to stay so wipe out the mobsters who profit from it: clean it up: regulate it ( as we do alcohol and tobacco) and keep the MONEY here in USA,,,,(C) legalize and TAX prostitution ( see above) (D) make corporations pay some goddamn taxes. (E) put some smallish ( 3 cents?) tax on all stock/option/securities/futures etc trades- each way. watch the money roll in on THAT one! (F) place 2 cent tax on all internet commerce deals– 2 cents to buyer; 2 cents to seller. (G) go back to the marginal tax rates of Eisenhowers time on the wealthy: they didn’t seem to collapse then; they wont now— (H) stop the F*CKING subsidies for RICH farmers and RICH oil companies,,,, they make enough money. also– make fat scumbags such as rush Limbaugh and sean Hannity and mike Huckabee and glenn beck pay extra for being such eyesores on TV

      • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

        it’s far from broke, but you see, if the reich wing can convince people that it is, it gives them yet another excuse to privatize yet another perfectly good thing. First they break things, then they pretend they are the savior who is going to fix the broken things which they blame others for breaking. Then they achieve their ORIGINAL objective, which was why they broke the things in the first place. It’s the Hegelian Dialectic, they use it in all things, and their main objective is this: getting taxpayers to put their money into private pockets == instead of tax revenues serving their INTENDED PURPOSE — serving the citizens, not the greedy and the exploiters. And yet people are so clueless, so unsuspecting of what they SHOULD be suspicious of!!

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        well stated

      • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

        well thank you!

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        “there U go again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,eviscerating a regressive crybaby republican with,,,,,,,,,,,FACTS”

      • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

        Ann, you poor dear, you just repeated what somebody told you, none of which has any basis in fact. Dear one, please stop being lazy and do your homework. The country has no money, we have only paper that is bought and sold, and any type of stability doesn’t exist. It’s just touch and go, but not in the manner you are probably thinking. And it didn’t begin recently. If you’ve been around for any length of time, or have paid attention for AT LEAST the past 30 years, you would have seen it all coming to EXACTLY this circumstance that long ago. I KNOW I DID, but nobody would listen to me then, and few people do now, or if they do, they seldom ACT on anything. Talk is cheap. DOING SOMETHING is our DUTY, because voting is perhaps only ten percent of our RESPONSIBILITY as beneficiaries of this nation’s blessings. There’s PLENTY of money, just not where it’s supposed to be, but yes, you’re correct in that there’s no money DOING WHAT IT SHOULD BE DOING. That’s because the reich wing god raygun made sure of it, and his FAILED POLICIES destroyed our nation some time ago, and will continue to do so for decades to come. It has been incrementally PLOTTED AND ACHIEVED by the same ones who pretend they didn’t break it in the first place. So if we are not actively and proactively INVOLVED AT ALL TIMES, and not doing our OWN homework, we should stop whining, because we did it to ourselves. PERIOD.

      • Ann_W

        So you know we have no money (BTW Obama has spent many, many times what Reagan spent) but your solution is what? To spend more money? You don’t make any sense.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        cupcake,,,, U need to look at obamas spending : the deficit is SHRINKING dramatically as you and I know U do NOT look at the REAL ( CBO/ US treasury) facts

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        and that running outofmoney initiated immediately when Obama assumed the mantle of president??? we were SURPLUS with Clinton: when GW bush ( again) engaged the lucripetous Reagan-esque policies of overspending where were you and the white trash tea party?????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WHERE TO BE SEEN

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        note: social security is solvent til 2032,,, that’s why big repub business wants a piece– “privatize” it ( Translation: see – private prisons)

      • jdunaway65

        Similar experience here… in the last couple of years I have discovered old High School and college friends on facebook. When I post/share things that reflect my opinion, they get vile and nasty… I reiterate my stance and ask them to refute them and they resort to name-calling (anything from libtard to pussy)… and then I make one last attempt, asking them to give a reasoned statement as to how/why I am wrong, and get more insults. So, then I “unfriend” them…

      • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

        because they have no minds of their own, nor do they have any degree of ACTUAL patriotism: because true patriots do their homework, they don’t allow somebody to TELL THEM what to think and repeat like some playback device. No, the truly lazy people are the very same ones that accuse the poor of being lazy, and often those lazy bullies are just as poor as the people they are criticizing!! Of course, most often, it’s white people criticizing other poor people who ARE NOT WHITE. It’s the plain and simple truth: most of their ignorance is based on bigotry on all fronts == from origins to what faith or lack of faith the other person has, they will spend every ounce of their energy on those things while their own glass houses shatter all around them.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        scumbag regressive southern white trash pseudo – Christians are just as prone to elocutionary aspersions as liberals. The BIG diff? low IQ inbred white trash scum tea party crybabies TRYtryTRY to bring THEIR VOODOO superstitions ( religion) into politics by CLAIMING their dead jewish sheep herder GOD (jesus) is the ONLY GOD,,,and these 21 century schizoid cretins are knowing what “GOD” wants

      • Justifymyconfessions

        As if, honey. As if.

      • Liam

        If you haven’t seen any of this it’s because you have your head deeply rammed you-know-where. That’s the only way to have missed it.

      • Jim Olson

        Then you haven’t been paying attention. Why would I want to try to have a civil discussion with a group of people who think I’m the spawn of satan?

      • John

        Ann…watch something other than Fox News and you’ll see it…

      • JamieHaman

        If you aren’t seeing “any of that” you aren’t watching TV, reading a newspaper, or going on line. Happens all the time.

      • Judi Parmer Todd

        Vinnie, WELL SAID!!

      • Heather Ferris

        I’ve been hearing this a lot, about how I need to listen to other “opinions” and “different ideas,” and it’s making me crazy.
        “Opinions” are fine. Passing off insanity as “opinions” that are based on “facts” is not only wrong, it does a disservice to our entire country. The right has gone so far off the rails that the “opinions” of ill-informed idiots are passing for FACTS and NEWS these days. That isn’t just wrong – IT’S DANGEROUS. It’s embarrassing. And the rest of us should not be forced to “consider” ridiculous “ideas” based on utter lack of common sense, common decency, and/or established fact.

      • Ann_W

        “Consider”ing “ideas” is called being open minded. People aren’t insane just because they have come to different conclusions than you.

      • CJ

        I’d consider it opened minded if not the fact that in the past year we have seen numerous conservatives stick both feet in their mouth with “opinions” that are not based on any valid facts (like the whole “legitimate rape” thing). It’s occurring more and more to hear such hogwash escaping their lips.

      • Heather Ferris

        Yes. Exactly.

      • Heather Ferris

        When you decide that 2+2=5, you have not “come to a different conclusion than me.” You’ve disregarded math. So when people’s “opinions” disregard math, science, and proven fact, we are under no obligation to coddle them.

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        awwww……………. there U go again: displaying FACTS to a xylocephalous regressive rightwinger!!

      • Justifymyconfessions

        Ann, I have had conservatives tell me science is evil, gays are evil, minorities are evil, that Christianity should be the national religion, Obama is a Kenyan/Muslim/Socialist/Communist/Alien, they have attacked his wife and kids, spent two years demanding to see his BIRTH CERTIFICATE, and WE are the meaniebuckets here?

      • Ann_W

        I don’t believe you. Prove it about the first three things.
        I know there are idiots who have been saying Obama is Kenyan a Muslim, but I smack them down anytime I see anyone say that. But there are idiots on both sides. On your side we have people who think 9/11 is an inside job. Do a few idiots on the fringes of both sides mean that conservatives and liberals can’t have a reasonable discussion about issues?

      • Justifymyconfessions

        I know from personal experience. They have told me to my face. I have many family members who are conservative and don’t think gays should adopt or marry, think all liberals are “lazy” and give away free things, hate science and teach creationism instead (also in a few public schools), and any fool can see conservatives vote according to their Christian beliefs.

        Liberals don’t think 9/11 was an inside job- that would be LIBERTARIANS, dear. There is a reason why Mitt Romney’s campaign and policies were widely shunned, and he lost the election. Which GOP policies have benefited society in a positive way in the past ten years? We have TRIED being reasonable, but when Mitch McConnell vowed from DAY ONE that Republicans would’t work with the President on any issues, makes it kind of difficult. We TRIED discussing things rationally, but your party was too busy demanding birth certificates and being infiltrated by the Tea Party and spending $125 million on DOMA and telling women what to do with their vaginas and telling businesses to lay people off to make Obama look bad. Do I really need to go on?

      • Ruth Kevghas

        My thoughts exactly!!!!

      • Brent Slensker

        “Truthers” tend to be right wing from MY experience.

      • malcom

        funny I had just the opposite that liberals say there is no God, Religion is evil. Whites are evil, Capitalism is evil, they hate Jesus, etc, You are the new nazi’s. So I suppose you think what YOu say is the truth because you disagree with what I say huh?

      • Justifymyconfessions

        Liberals fight for minorities. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, dude. We ended DADT. We are fighting for gay rights. We are for EVERYBODY, not just WHITE, CHRISTIAN, HETEROSEXUALS. Republicans are the ones fighting gay marriage. We don’t hate Jesus or God, just don’t try to run the country based on that. Whites aren’t evil- how fucking stupid is that? I’m white myself! YOU apparently don’t get it.

        Oh and you failed to answer my question- which GOP policies have benefited society in the last ten years?

      • Brent Slensker

        Again, using words you don’t know the definition of!!

      • Dru

        No where did he say they were evil. But, in the statement that he made about losing the power of rational thought, reasoning, and civil debate DOES mean they are deficient in their ability to be open minded. They are selfish, greedy, and want only for themselves. Which, as the article above states, is the opposite of the Christianity that they wield and use to demean others’ lives!

      • Ann_W

        Hahahaha, I respond to a ad hominem comment based on a stereotype, and here are three comments saying that that’s ok. Yet, Conservatives are the ones that are unChristian according to you all. You guys need to talk to other people who do not think exactly like you.

      • Iamtam

        Very typical for a ‘conservative’ to change the subject as well..
        Nice try Ann.

      • Ann_W

        Iamtam, actually it addressed the issue exactly. Was it the big words that threw you?

      • Glen

        Now, if that’s not condescending and insulting, I don’t know what is. You’re such a hypocrite.

      • Judi Parmer Todd

        See, there you go Ann. EXACTLY what we are talking about. You try to ‘insinuate” that Iamtam isn’t very “educated” by your remark about big words. Sorry, that doesn’t cut the mustard, and shows your feelings of superiority.

      • FlSam

        Ann just prefers to sugarcoat her insults. Easier to pass judgment on the evil liberals that way, lol….

      • davidoftulsa

        Thank you for your work. I recently posted a fact. (Republicans don’t do well with facts.) This is what I posted: ‘It just so happens that seven percent of research scientists claim the Republican party.’ You should have seen the blow back I got from my Republican frienemies. They REALLY can’t deal with facts.

      • MrLightRail

        Wasn’t there a study recently that showed that Fox News viewers became more stupid as they watched it?

      • http://www.bubblews.com/account/115482-grannytenderstone Granny Tenderstone

        Ann, you’re creating battles that don’t exist in reality. No ma’am, it’s not demeaning. IT’S TRUTH, and if you can’t see it, chances are you just respond as you’ve been perhaps programmed to respond. We progressives actually CONTEMPLATE things, we don’t REPEAT what somebody else said. And to say that liberals are closed minded and “judgemental” is about the most blatant case of pot and kettle I’ve seen — ever !!!

      • moe/larry & curly keys

        when repeated idiocies by anyone causes a statement which U ( above) don’t like,,,,, why should a “liberal” continue to (A) TRY to have a civil–and logical– discourse (B) show such insanity by TRYING to do so with xylocephalous regressives who cry BENGHAZI,,,,SPENDING,,,,,,KENYA,,,,,,, COMING 4ur GUNS,,,,,, FAST & FURIOUS…….ENTITLEMENT/NANNY STATE,,,, when its clear that the Obama administration–while flawed– is far far superior policy -wise to the bush ( 1& 2) and Reagan republicans which shoveled us into this mess.? Maybe U might want to ask Glenn Beck and sean “puffbelly” Hannity and michelle “hates her life” malkin and Mike “pastor of lies” Huckabee as well as Rush “DRUGGIE” Limbaugh how the lack of TRUTH and FACTS within THEIR media shows is worthy of an expostulatory “discourse”

      • Kitte Lishuss

        Pointing out true facts like how conservatives have lost the powers of rational thought, reasoning, and civil debate is not the same as name calling. It is simply explaining exactly what has been happening from the right. The fact that you have nothing to offer in regards to the facts presented in the article except indignant tone-policing to derail the conversation only proves that the points made are just as true for you as any other conservative.

  • Criss Contino

    Part 2:

    Benghazi: When are you Leftists finally going to “get” that the “outrage” is not such the simpleton mentality of an issue as “american body counts”? I mean, I realize, (as evidenced during the last two years of the Bush administration) that body counts are important during a war most everyone supported after 9/11, that is until they saw people actually died and they saw the tab, (a human and monetary cost Bush warned about several times btw), and of course is only a problem if one ignores that not only did Obama ignore his 2008 campaign promises to withdraw all troops within a year of his election, but has since TRIPLED the amount of body bags of american troops in Afghanistan in HALF the time, and has also expanded on the drone strikes as his “weapon of choice”, expanded the “Bush Tax Cuts” he so frivolously blames Bush for. Benghazi has nothing to do with being “another attack on an American embassy and people died”, and everything to do with the way the entire thing was handled. Most importantly, the 6 month period leading up to the attack, because the WH argument only works if there were never any indication that all personnel including the Ambassador were BEGGING for more security, additionally, only works if 9/11 were not a key date, additionally, only works if they cannot tell the difference between a spontaneous protest gone awry (in reality, it was a spontaneous lie to the american people gone awry) and a planned terrorist attack they had advance knowledge of. They knew damned well it wasn’t due to any youtube video, nor were any of the other string of attacks like Camp Bastion or US Embassies across the region spanning over two weeks following the SEPTEMBER 11TH attack on Benghazi and the first embassy attack resulting in the death of not only other americans but also an American Ambassador since 1979 (thank ya Carter).

    Answer me this: If the second amendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights isn’t about thwarting tyranny, and establishing inalienable rights, then why are they there? Did you forget what the founding fathers fought their independence from? Yes, that’s right, a tyrannical totalitarian monarchy. If you notice, the Bill of Rights contradicts everything they were subjected to under british totalitarian rule, as well as throwing in a few “insurance” measures like the 2nd amendment and spreading out powers between three branches, with checks and balances.

    You ask about article 3, as if you don’t know the answer. The 2nd amendment is the last line of defense against all enemies foreign, and domestic. If the government should ever get to the point that crosses the line into “tyranny”, then it is the government, not the People of this republic, that become “traitors” as you put it, as it is those that assume office to uphold the constitution, by the people for the people. You get it yet?

    • http://www.facebook.com/diannecb Dianne Carney Bagley

      After the attack they only knew what was being reported to them. As the facts came to light and the evidence was collected there was more to report. I saw this all unfolding live on TV. This was in no way a lie to cover up anything, but a witch hunt created from the right, to discredit the presidents re-election, basically by that idiot Romney. Those of us that actually followed this story live, knew of the republican scam. It didn’t work then, and won’t work now. There’s nothing to hide and the only one’s to blame are the terrorists. Get over it. Also anyone plotting against our government are traitors, there is no tyranny here with the exception of the tea party. The farthest thing from our forefathers minds was being attacked from within. And yes, by making laws based on religious beliefs is taking the rights of others away, period.

      • Criss Contino

        Wow. You are a very good subject indeed. You claim to have “watched it all on live TV”, but you show all the indications that you certainly did not. You only watched the backpeddling and believed the lies that were told from behind. Those of us that actually DID watch it “live”, knew right away that it was no “spontaneous protest over a youtube video”. The position of “we only reported what we knew at the time” doesn’t make any sense whatsoever and is nothing but talking points for the weak minded. If this were true (and it is not), then they would not have been reporting it as “fact” for two weeks, they would have simply stated they will not comment on the nature of the attacks, or speculate as we sift through the confusion and conflicting reports to start with. It is this utter ridiculousness that a) military intelligence is that daft that they “didn’t know” it was a planned terrorist attack right away like the rest of us did and b) actually choose a story no less ridiculous than blaming unicorns, leprechauns and fairies instead of going with the obvious. It was a terrorist attack on a known date for terrorist attacks in a volatile region of the globe. Does it make any sense to you at all (if you possess any common sense and/or the ability of free thinking) that the WH would choose to report the least likely of scenarios as FACT before they even consider the most likely of scenarios? Those of us that actually DID watch this charade in real time, weren’t worried about what house republicans were saying about it. Those of us that actually DID watch it all unfold, saw a POTUS and entire administration defect from the obvious, dismiss the obvious, and go with the crazy assed youtube video story. This is akin to blaming a Leprechaun first, and later saying something like “we now know after we’ve had a chance to investigate that it was indeed Mr. Smith’s wife whom shot him dead on their anniversary date in his mistress’ home and not a Leprechaun angry at him for walking through his clover garden and discovering a gold coin as we originally thought and reported as fact. We were only reporting what we were told at the time.”

        It turns out, Dianne, that the rest of us were right almost instantly. It’s 9/11, in a volatile region, black AQ flags are flying, “protestors” using AK-47’s and rocket launchers and mortars, was indeed what it looked like – a planned terrorist attack. It also turns out, the place was attacked 6 months earlier and multiple requests for additional security were denied. All documented. That alone shows forewarning well in advance, so at the very least, the State dpt nor the potus or anyone in the CIA was ever taken “off guard”. There is no excuse with all that warning from various personnel including Stevens himself that no help could “reach the compound in time”. If you think any of that then you must think our military and intelligence is too inadequate to protect this country if they can’t protect one embassy. So you have two options for concern:

        1) Our military and intelligence is too inept and inadequate to protect the USA, but hey, we have well intended, honest and honorable politicians who really “tried” or

        2) We actually are capable of protecting our country and therefore one embassy but our administration is too corrupt and uncaring to do anything about it.

        Take your pick, because it has to be one of them, and only one, and that should scare the shit out of you.

  • stainpouch

    Dear Allen,
    Your article supposes that Republicans can read. The fact of the matter is, the right wing has won. The coup was a success. They have all the money and when that happens, Monopoly ends.

  • Pingback: Republicans are only pretending to care about Benghazi because they need something to attack Hillary Clinton with in 2016 | 123 Idaho()

  • http://www.facebook.com/meg.faunce Meg Faunce

    I’ve been saying the same thing about being a “Christian”. I think Jesus used the word a few times… “hypocrite”. which is how I view many on the conservative side. the rally cry is “bring God back into schools. bring God back to our country”…and yet…those same people would want drastic cuts to social programs that will have unbelievable devastating effects on the poor. God sent His son to spread the good word. ashame it’s falling on deaf ears

  • http://www.facebook.com/terry.bennett.79 Terry Bennett

    Why don’t they change the name “Debt Ceiling”? The name itself seems to cause a lot of difficulty for people to understand. I know what it means, but I talk to a lot of people who have trouble translating to title to the action. Maybe call it what it is, “Paying Bills Due”!

  • Hallocco

    If you really want to convince someone, you should probably demonstrate an effort to understand where they’re coming from. Meeting what you see as ignorance with snide remarks and self-serving commentary is just ignorance by another name. You’re not really interested in understanding the concerns of your fellow Americans and developing a creative solution. You’re just interested in restating your principles in a tautological way, as though, because your arguments are persuasive to you,since they reflect an ordering of your priorities, they are persuasive to others. Every individual has a responsibility to construct, test, and live by a coherent belief system. But when theses prioritizations withing differing belief systems conflict, what is useless, ignorant, and inflammatory is spouting the arguments which reflect your own priorities as though they reflect the priorities of others. If you want to have a dialogue, start by acting as though other people have a right to believe, for example, that the right to bear arms is not based on a pragmatic goal, but rather is a reflection of a belief in the inalienable freedom we all possess with or without government, and bearing arms while perhaps an unnecessary right, is merely a line past which government may not trespass. If you can understand that there are things worth dying for or things worth tolerating the incidental harm toward others for, than you should understand that for some republicans issues like abortion and gun rights are not negotiable in the way you think they are. It’s not really a matter of pragmatism, it’s a matter of objective principle. They perceive abortion as murder, so start talking to them about murder and scientific principles and not about women’s rights, because women start as fetuses too and murder is always wrong. Discuss alternative ways to protective the innocent in addition slapping on new gun regulation. Not every solution has to be a legal one. Much can be done outside of the purview of the government. Generally, the parties need to stop branding each other as obviously uneducated and uninformed. Even if the other side were uneducated and uninformed, that would not make their concerns or beliefs irrelevant. Both sides are informed on the issues as they perceive it, but they are talking at cross-purposes and incapable of being anything other than sadly impotent. If you care, propose solutions that everyone can agree to and that are more than derogatory toward your opponents and self-promoting of your own world view.

  • Hallocco

    Also, I want to say this once, because I’m tired of the crummy legal argument. Being gay doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to get married under Texas law. It means you, like everyone else are limited to your choice of marital partners. I’m not gay, but I can’t marry a woman in Texas just like my lesbian friend can’t marry a woman in Texas. I can get married to a man, and so can my lesbian friend. Neither of us can get married to a person who is already married. We can’t get married to a dead person, or minors of certain ages, and to other people who can’t consent. As a society, we accept that the law has a right to limit who we can marry, and the law as it stands is being applied to us equally. The issue to discuss is simply whether the government should be allowed to regulate the choice of marital partner between single, consenting adults. It’s an issue that effects not just homosexuals, but all Americans, because fundamentally, we are all being told by the government who we can or can’t marry.

    • http://www.facebook.com/diannecb Dianne Carney Bagley

      If someone can’t marry the person they want should be unconstitutional. Why should there be laws to tell us who we can and can’t marry. It will in no way, what so ever affect anyone else. Nor should they force a women to have an unwanted child, tell us what church to go to or base any law on any religious beliefs. Laws should be made for the good of all the people not just some of the people.

  • SP2912

    *standing ovation*

  • http://www.facebook.com/diannecb Dianne Carney Bagley

    This was brilliant thank you. I so agree with you and I love your explanations. Factual and to the point in simple language.

  • Tony

    I have a fairly conservative family. You’re talking about a group of people who sent me e-mails about the uber-Christian Prime Minister of Australia who forced out people who wanted Sharia law because she was such a wonderful, proud Christian nationalist.

    Nevermind that she’s an atheist who would have never said or done such a thing.

    And never mind that along the way someone used Snopes as a source — a source that contradicted the article in question! Hundreds of people were copied on this, and that’s just this one chain. Many people who I otherwise know and have respect for.

    I don’t think every Conservative is like this, but when you’re talking about convincing people who hate facts? Who base half of their understanding on chain letters that DEBUNK THEMSELVES? What the hell do you do there? lol

  • http://www.facebook.com/hjeffrey.waggy H Jeffrey Waggy

    get a life asshole.Obama stands and defends Muslum instead of we the American people.we never ever supported any terrorist nation like he has now.

    • Loredana

      Is ignorance your middle name ?.Take your fox news riddle and go spew it somewhere else .

  • Skithien

    You say that the Conservatives are being fed propaganda and lies from the media outlets that they choose to watch? I agree, but can you on the left honestly deny that the same thing is happening on your side? All of the media is constantly feeding lies to us, it’s driving a wedge between the American people. Remember when we all used to be Americans instead of Democrats or Republicans? Our country is spiraling downward and yet we aren’t coming together to fix it, instead we argue over each sides individual “values”. We lump every single person that identifies themselves with a specific political party a certain way “The Republicans are all rich bastards or gun toting rednecks!” “The Liberals are Socialists that just want everything handed to them or they condone child murdering and hate God!”. The problem is that we are so focused on hating each other instead of being more involved in what the government is doing, that the government is running itself into the ground. We are so determined to vote for whoever is listed under our political party or whoever is talked up the most in the media. We need to get a real person in the government someone who of the people and has been where most of us are because, like it or not, most of them haven’t. When Romney went up for election a big deal was made over the fact the he’s rich, well I hate to break it to ya but they all are. Our election process makes it so that you have to be loaded with money or be good friends with those that can load up your election campaign to get elected. So how do we get a person that’s of the people in there? I have no idea, all I know is that hating a Liberal or hating a Conservative isn’t going to help. We need to remember that we are all Americans in the end and are supposed to be the ones in charge of this country, we shouldn’t let the media and the government rule us.

    • http://www.facebook.com/diannecb Dianne Carney Bagley

      Jeffery you’re a perfect example of why this country can’t come together, it’s racists and bigots like yourself.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jailovesrach Jai-Sin Rachael Worme

        I honestly couldn’t find any thing racist or bigot about his comments. Could you please explain?

    • FlSam

      You make some very valid points, Skithien. But who owns the media, on nearly every level? Corporations. Corporations are behind not only the information getting out to the masses, but they are also behind organizations posing as “grassroots” mom and pop groups, saying whatever they think people want to hear in order to get people behind whatever supports their corporate agenda. People are pointing their anger at each other and not focusing it where it should be – toward the disturbingly rapid corporatocracy this country is turning into.

  • PoliSci Pete

    As a conservative, I will make the following comments starting from the end; Christian values, absolutely agree w/ your statement, the 2nd Amendment nor the Constitution supersedes God’s Word. Constitutional Rights; 1) Gay marriage – let them have the selfish cultural right & let the lawyers get rich, not my place to judge 2) Abortion – Kermit Gosnell & otc “day after pill”. it’s not about your bodies, it’s about your selfishness 3) Religion – yes, the Govt cannot force a “religion” upon us but we can practice our religion both privately & publicly. God is not a religion, He is a deity. There are many public schools in this country that cater directly to Muslims and stop classes to allow for prayer. Under God – your history is absolutely true but Christianity (a religion) is not mentioned in the Constitution but the concept of God and a Creator is because of the Judeo/Christian (pre-Darwin theories) make up of the original “founding” of our country. Sequester – yes, it was politics, pure and simple. Get over it. both parties have been doing this for generations.

  • PoliSci Pete

    Defense – I think the defense budget is too big and we are spread out too much and too wasteful (as most Govt bureaucracies are). However, I do want a strong, efficient & modern defense to protect our border and keep foreign enemies in check. Our defense is not meant to be a “standing army” to control domestic issues unless a foreign enemy were to invade us. Domestically, we have police and the National Guard (controlled by governors, not the federal govt) and we do not need a “domestic army” ie Homeland Security, that is controlled by the feds.
    2nd Amendment – a premeditated, organized armed uprising would possibly be considered “act of war” against the country but an well-armed defense against tyrannical actions by the govt would not, that would be patriotic.
    Benghazi – blame Bush is getting old. i don’t blame Carter. Clear and simple, for weeks upon end, the State dept & WH claimed this to be a sporadic uprising blamed on a YouTube video. The chickens are coming home to roost with Senate Dems & John Kerry opening up the investigation further on top of the IRS and AP scandals while our President hops from one party to another.

    Peace and may God bless America, even though He must be getting a little frustrated these days with our free will…

    Sin offers freedom & ecstasy in the short-term but delivers slavery and depression in the long-term

  • http://www.facebook.com/brentdunklau Brent Dunklau

    For the most part,the Democrat party is the “victim” party. Their
    message is essentially “You can’t do it on your own because the deck is
    stacked against you.” Or put another way, “You need us because life
    isn’t fair.” This is a great strategy on their part because you’ll always have people that think life isn’t fair and there will always be a top 10% and a bottom 90% to pit against each other. The problem with the message lies in the division it creates. We are “one nation”, not two. And that nation is the *United* States, not the Divided States. But if you listen to the Democrats, we *are* two nations pitted against each other. One part screwing the other part. One part rich, the other part poor. One part white, the other part “of color”. One part evangelical and bigoted, the other part “enlightened” (how condescending).

    The Democrats have been very effective with the message “No you can’t – not without us”. Obama rephrased this masterfully in ’08 as “Yes, we can!” Notice how he said “Yes WE can”.

    Conservatives prefer a slightly different message: Yes YOU can! The Conservative message is one of INDIVIDUAL responsibility. Liberals talk about the collective – what can we do together. Conservatives like to talk about what we can do on our OWN. Conservatives believe in THEMSELVES. We believe in our OWN abilities. We also believe we can, if govt would just get out of the way, maybe not tax us 50%

    Most of us are not rich. Most of us don’t drive yachts or Ferraris or vacation in Hawaii. Most of us don’t employ anyone. Most of us are employees ourselves. Like you, most of us want more out of life. But we pursue what we want in a different way and with a different mindset. This liberal mindset as pushed by the Democrat party says the way you get more out of life is by getting someone else to pay for it. (Free contraception anyone? Perfect example). Conservatives try to get more out of life by (a) trying to earn more money/start a business, etc, and (b) trying to reduce what govt takes from them. Liberals feel justified in raising taxes on some to pay for stuff for others. The rationale is: We are only taking from people that can afford to pay a little more.

    Conservatives understand something Liberals don’t: That there are unintended consequences to raising someone’s taxes. Your Latina employer doesn’t just bend over and take it, she “passes the savings along” to YOU. If your African-American employer’s taxes go up, she may fire YOU just to stay in business. Your Lesbian employer may not have the luxury of raising her prices to offset the higher taxes and higher mandatory health insurance premiums. She may find it more cost effective to fire you than to pay the employer mandate penalty or the health ins premiums. Liberals don’t seem to get this. They analyze everything statically. They assume if they raise taxes x%, that the govt will take in x% more.

    Liberals focus on the problems govt solves and the problems capitalism creates. Conservatives are just the opposite: We focus on the benefits of capitalism and the perils of too much govt involvement in that free market process. Liberals claim it is anything BUT a free market, that the rich rule over the poor. Conservatives understand there is no “rich” class and no “poor” class. Some people have more than others; that will always be the case. Liberals push the notion that if you are “rich”, you didn’t earn it or you don’t deserve it. President Obama even famously stated that “at some point, you’ve made enough money”. The implication being: anything beyond that you either didn’t earn or don’t deserve.

    Conservatives want everyone to feel rich. Liberals play on the emotions of those that think they never will be. We don’t anyone to feel taken advantage of or disenfranchised. Liberals NEED that. Liberals NEED you to feel like you are powerless to do it on your own.

    Liberals are essentially pimps exploiting the hopes and fears of their constituents. Liberals portray the vast majority of Conservatives as racist white people. Liberals claim that it is impossible for Liberals to be racist, yet will characterize any Conservative who isn’t white as an Uncle Tom. Liberals portray ALL Conservatives as card carrying Republicans who ALL voted for GW. Liberals always have the race card at the ready just waiting to throw it down on anyone that criticizes a Liberal person “of color”. But they will be the first ones to sling a rope over a tree if a Conservative black man dares present himself as Exhibit A that yes you can make it without the Democrat party (Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson, JC Watts, Thomas Sowell).

    In summary, Conservatives: good, Liberals: bad

    There you go!

    • cjmarley

      There will always be those who are not rich. So conservatives are never going to get everyone to “feel” rich. Conservatives lump social security and medicaid as “entitlements” which are not…they were paid for by each working American. Conservatives tout “self-reliance”…but yet how can a child, disabled person or elderly person be totally self-reliant. Oh that’s right…their family should help them. What if the family can’t? What if there family members only make $8/hr. Oh wait…they should have gotten a college education. But yet there are people with college educations who can’t find jobs that pay more than $8/hr. OH wait..if their employer gets more tax breaks the money they save will trickle down to their employees. Nope…it stays in the employers bank accounts (with the exception of a very, very few who actually have put the money toward their employees…but they are very rare). Oh yea…if you can’t make more than $8/hr you shouldn’t be having babies. But we aren’t going to help you not have babies even though you can’t afford the birth control that would help you to not have them and we sure aren’t going to allow you to stop a pregnancy even if it’s from a rapist (no…your body will reject that pregnancy if it’s a legitimate rape or so I’ve been told by some conservative mouth piece).

      Yep…I’m a bleeding heart liberal…because I believe it’s our responsibility to care for our fellow human beings…offer them a hand up…provide them shelter when they are cold…food when they are hungry…and an education to help them (possibly…but of course anymore no guarantee) succeed. I want children to continue to have a quality education, for our military to continue to receive the benefits they have deserve and for our elderly to not have to worry about choosing between food and medications. A hand up is not a hand out.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jacob.daniels.399488 Jacob Daniels

        THANK YOU!!!!! People like you are why us Liberals are so strong!!! Thanks for showing that bigot troll what Liberals are made of!!!!!!!!!1

    • http://www.facebook.com/jacob.daniels.399488 Jacob Daniels

      HAHAHAHAHA bigots like you are why Obama is doing so well. When Obama’s campaign for ’08 was “yes we can” it encompassed EVERYONE. Conservatives want to make everyone feel like they are bad and shouldn’t have any money. Once, again, you bigot, the government helps people. Conservatives don’t want the Amercian people to feel like the government helps them. How do Conservatives want EVERYONE to feel rich?! The only people the Conservatives make feel rich are their own fellow Conservatives. And I remember right, the Conservatives don’t and never will, understand that the Liberals know the difference between rich and poor. The Conservatives want nothing to do with the government but when their house gets destroyed from a tornado, who are they crying for?! Um… hmmm… that’s a toughy… THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!!! Out of the many things Conservatives will never understand, the top 2 are government, and racism. So there you go. Liberals: good, Conservatives: bad

      • Brent Dunklau

        You may actually meet the definition of an idiot.

        I love this post of yours…

        “Lol you’re so humorous. I’m an athiest so I don’t read the bible and believe in Christ. While you live in fear that Christ will repent you for your sins I am living peacefully and out of fear.”

        Christ will repent you for your sins?! WTF does that even mean?

        Go pick up a couple IQ points before you reply. You’re not representing your side very well.

      • Jacob Daniels

        You say I should pick up a couple of IQ points. If you don’t know what repent means then you should get some IQ points, buddy.

      • Brent Dunklau

        “Christ will repent you for your sins” – is English not your first language?

      • Jacob Daniels

        Yes it is actually. I just know about Christianity and what it entails.

  • CJ

    Doesn’t matter how valid your points are…you cannot change a conservative.

  • kwilson

    Um, gee fella….thanks a whole bunch for your instructions, on how I should contribute to a debate on the merits of liberal politics, with my conservative associates. What’s with the blatant condescension? The points you’re offering have been made many times over – did you really think any of these explanations originated with you?

  • Michelle

    I appreciate your input. It is always nice to get a fresh perspective from an intelligent source. I can’t say that I agree with it all but I respect you for telling it. The one thing we all must remember is political party aside, we are American Citizens. We are all in the same sinking ship. Let’s face it, we will never agree on everything because we are human. One thing that we must agree on is that our country is in very big trouble. Regardless of all the political issues they throw in front of us to argue about. We must rise above the distractions and come to an intelligent and hopefully peaceful resolution. We can reform our government once we win our county back. Love you all even if I don’t know you. Who knows maybe one day we will all be standing side by side trying to keep the rights for many generations to come. I respect all view points. It will take every single one of us to figure out what to do and strategically plan out a way to restore our freedoms and our constitution. Peace and love to all of you and the best of luck to each person who reads this. Thank you for writing this!

  • R.I. Russo

    Lately I’ve stepped back from trying to make sense to Conservatives. I just post it whenever I see another Rep. Politician make another ignorant remark or state something that is untrue and throw it back in their face.

  • Jeff

    I love your take on Christians. I am a devout Christian and have argued this point for years. I simply do not understand how anyone would think Jesus wanted you to own an automatic weapon. Or how Jesus would encourage breaks for the rich. Seriously my conservative friends, read the new testament. Quit throwing old testament phrases at me then saying you are a
    christian. You are not.

  • Dave from MLT

    The message of truth can only be dispensed in the public forum available. Unfortunately, the teapublicans have become a party of parrots and listen to the Faux News rants and take them as facts. The problem is that the mainstream media is also conservative, so the true message is often not told because reporters making intelligent and truthful reports would be out of a job.

  • Jim Olson

    Bravo. Brilliant, and thank you so very much for these two articles. I’m going to go nail these to the front door of home of the nearest conservative. (not really…but I’d sure like to…It’s the Lutheran in me.)

  • malcom

    so this is where traitors, communists, socialists , liberals and democrats hang out huh? sub human trash with NO human value. You disgusting things have done more damage to this once great nation than any foreign military or terrorists.

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  • HeartforPeace

    So glad to have discovered Allen Clifton! Loved Part 1 and now, Part 2, as well. You’ve really succinctly summarized many of the absurd (way too many more adjectives also apply) talking points of the party of cognitive dissonance. No matter what excellent sense and logic you’ve applied to to dispel these crazy info-bites, the lack of open-mindedness and a stubborn refusal to discuss….anything…..makes it frustratingly difficult to have any type of functional dialogue. I’ve stopped trying. We just need to work very hard in 2014!

  • r

    Please tell me how any thing that any other President may or may not have done makes it okay for Obama to not lift a finger to help the people who were killed in the Benghazi attack? Think about it. Your argument isn’t, Obama did everything he could, but was unsuccessful. Your argument is making a false analogy to George Bush. But if it were a real analogy, you think that leaving those men to die is okay as long as it’s Obama who did it. Why can’t you be outraged about both? Why can’t you hold Obama accountable for a horrible act instead of finding another horrible act in history to make it okay. Is Clinton’s 2016 campaign so important that you would let her get away with it? Are there no Democrats with moral character from which to choose?

  • Linda Jenkins

    A great article, as was part 1. However, I have found that Republicans are not open to intellectual discussions. These facts simply fall on deaf ears and single-digit IQs–never penetrating the recesses of the brain that analyze rational/critical thought.

  • langranny

    Just say to them: “Yes. I am a Liberal. That is because I value the freedom of all the people in this country to live their lives as they see fit and not to have to live the way YOU (and your pseudo god) see fit.” I think that is what the constitution is talking about…

  • langranny

    Don’t talk to me about your god. I’ll believe when he or she stops killing innocent children in wars and shootings. I’ll believe when he or she stops floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes and tsunamis that kill thousands. This is not something a “loving” god would do. I’ll believe when disease, hunger and evil are gone. The Bible may say that “Jesus is love” but mankind has certainly taken it upon himself to prove otherwise. If there is a god, he or she needs to get his or her butt back down here and clean up the mess he or she created.

  • Sarah Kremer

    I wouldn’t show this to a conservative. Even the tone is just nasty and making assumptions that the republican reading it is a total moron (I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want to read anything that talks down to me either). As a liberal with a conservative, Republican father I can tell you that this approach is useless.

    My dad is very educated and has his PhD in Finance (as well as being a history and politics buff). When I try to convince him of something, I try to get him on the same page with me first and go from there. Like with creationism being taught in schools (something I’m against and he’s for) I start with a point I know he agrees with. I ask him if he believes in freedom of religion and that religion should be separate from government (he nods and says “freedom of religion, not freedom FROM religion). Then I say, well, isn’t creationism a religious belief? He grunts and says it’s still a belief of how the world was created and it shouldn’t be ignored. Then I say, “Well, whose version of creationism should we use in schools?” Every religion has their own version of creationism and if you put just the Christian story of creationism, doesn’t that go against freedom of religion? He usually won’t talk much after I get to my point, but I can tell he’s thinking about it.

    Just talking to him like he’s ignorant won’t get me anywhere, but getting him to the answers himself by using his own arguments and beliefs, that can have some impact sometimes. If you really want to turn the hearts and minds of conservatives, don’t put them in a defensive position, get on the same page and find out at what point they deviate so you can reason with them better.

  • artisanr

    most conservatives don’t care a hoot about facts because everything in your articles is, in fact, veiled racism.